[Debate] Staff Abusing Powers

[Storm]

Well, for one, people can't see what they've done since a person has to log onto the forum to view the profiles. If you feel and have clear precise evidence such as those links, why not file a tos report? There should be a report abuse link at the bottom of each forum. It will be addressed from that point on and if the tos dept here finds it necessary, they will take further action.

And I did read that yes, but I wanted to clarify on the other as well. It's sad to see that people would do that others, but there are plenty of other forums you could register at that people won't be ugly to you on. It's not right and it's not fair, but these days it's the internet and you basically have to just take and find a place where you are accepted.

[ily 'TIL THE end]

Aug 8, 2010 0:11:28 GMT -8 Storm said:

Well, for one, people can't see what they've done since a person has to log onto the forum to view the profiles. If you feel and have clear precise evidence such as those links, why not file a tos report? There should be a report abuse link at the bottom of each forum. It will be addressed from that point on and if the tos dept here finds it necessary, they will take further action.

And I did read that yes, but I wanted to clarify on the other as well. It's sad to see that people would do that others, but there are plenty of other forums you could register at that people won't be ugly to you on. It's not right and it's not fair, but these days it's the internet and you basically have to just take and find a place where you are accepted.

I agree with what you said up until the last sentence. A lot of places are meant for everyone to be a part of, no one place is designed for just a few select people to join. That is considered discrimination, which I disagree with entirely. If someone is abusing someone and they have the power to do what they want just because they don't feel the person belongs, is a coward and shouldn't old the position they hold. It's like a white police officer who beats the crap out of a black guy just because he's black and doesn't believe the black guy fits in to the neighborhood. It's not right and anyone that condones such behavior isn't a good person themselves and should really rethink their priorities on how they treat people. I just find the idea of "just leave because you don't fit in due to the discrimination shown by certain people, staff or both" disgusting.

I'm not hating on you Storm, I just feel very passionate about views like that. The way I feel just makes sense to me because it feels natural for me to believe that.

[Storm]

Aug 8, 2010 13:40:23 GMT -8 ily 'TIL THE end said:

Aug 8, 2010 0:11:28 GMT -8 Storm said:

Well, for one, people can't see what they've done since a person has to log onto the forum to view the profiles. If you feel and have clear precise evidence such as those links, why not file a tos report? There should be a report abuse link at the bottom of each forum. It will be addressed from that point on and if the tos dept here finds it necessary, they will take further action.

And I did read that yes, but I wanted to clarify on the other as well. It's sad to see that people would do that others, but there are plenty of other forums you could register at that people won't be ugly to you on. It's not right and it's not fair, but these days it's the internet and you basically have to just take and find a place where you are accepted.

I agree with what you said up until the last sentence. A lot of places are meant for everyone to be a part of, no one place is designed for just a few select people to join. That is considered discrimination, which I disagree with entirely. If someone is abusing someone and they have the power to do what they want just because they don't feel the person belongs, is a coward and shouldn't old the position they hold. It's like a white police officer who beats the crap out of a black guy just because he's black and doesn't believe the black guy fits in to the neighborhood. It's not right and anyone that condones such behavior isn't a good person themselves and should really rethink their priorities on how they treat people. I just find the idea of "just leave because you don't fit in due to the discrimination shown by certain people, staff or both" disgusting.

I'm not hating on you Storm, I just feel very passionate about views like that. The way I feel just makes sense to me because it feels natural for me to believe that.

And I disagree with what you said. With all due respect, there are boards that are allowed private memberships as long as they don't bluntly discriminate against a person. If I had a private board, I would not want certain people here to join it. Not because of their color or race, which again, is hard to see over the internet. But it would be my right to not allow certain people from here onto my board. Membership to a forum is privilege, not a right.

It's basically like trying to say I don't or anyone else doesn't have a right to not allow certain people into their house because that person is entitled to be in my house. I'm sorry but that is not going to happen. I could care less about what race a person is. If I have a reason for not allowing someone, that is my right as well as any other admin's right to deny said membership. And to pull the race card on an admin to force them to allow someone membership is not only wrong on so many levels, it's also is not what the true meaning is in being discriminated against.

Being truly discriminated against is when an admin tells a member they are denied because of their race even if they don't know the person. For example: Saying "This forum is only for white people of a certain state." That's discriminating. Not denying someone because they are a trouble maker and the person tries use the race card as a means of getting a private memberships forum deleted. This also goes to a public memberships forum.

It's the responsibility of the member to read the rules of the what the forums list and the tos here had stated if they do not agree, the had two weeks to terminate their account. It doesn't matter what race they are, they still have to abide by the laws and rules set forth by each community. And that's what I dislike is someone trying to pull 'the race' card and whine about not being at a forum when it's clear they've caused problems in the past. Now granted if an admin has done what they supposedly done like in rag's case, then he should file a tos report. But each admin has that right to deny a person as they wish. It's very difficult to tell a person's race over the internet. You can't 'see' someone through wires..

And more so if it's clear you are not wanted at a forum, why even go there to begin with? You only set yourself up for hate and being picked on people that obviously don't like you. There are millions of forums hosted here that can be chosen where a person is accepted. no sense in going into the lions den and saying, "Want to be my friend?" And getting mauled to death from lions.

[ily 'TIL THE end]

Aug 8, 2010 18:04:55 GMT -8 Storm said:

Aug 8, 2010 13:40:23 GMT -8 ily 'TIL THE end said:

I agree with what you said up until the last sentence. A lot of places are meant for everyone to be a part of, no one place is designed for just a few select people to join. That is considered discrimination, which I disagree with entirely. If someone is abusing someone and they have the power to do what they want just because they don't feel the person belongs, is a coward and shouldn't old the position they hold. It's like a white police officer who beats the crap out of a black guy just because he's black and doesn't believe the black guy fits in to the neighborhood. It's not right and anyone that condones such behavior isn't a good person themselves and should really rethink their priorities on how they treat people. I just find the idea of "just leave because you don't fit in due to the discrimination shown by certain people, staff or both" disgusting.

I'm not hating on you Storm, I just feel very passionate about views like that. The way I feel just makes sense to me because it feels natural for me to believe that.

And I disagree with what you said. With all due respect, there are boards that are allowed private memberships as long as they don't bluntly discriminate against a person. If I had a private board, I would not want certain people here to join it. Not because of their color or race, which again, is hard to see over the internet. But it would be my right to not allow certain people from here onto my board. Membership to a forum is privilege, not a right.

It's basically like trying to say I don't or anyone else doesn't have a right to not allow certain people into their house because that person is entitled to be in my house. I'm sorry but that is not going to happen. I could care less about what race a person is. If I have a reason for not allowing someone, that is my right as well as any other admin's right to deny said membership. And to pull the race card on an admin to force them to allow someone membership is not only wrong on so many levels, it's also is not what the true meaning is in being discriminated against.

Being truly discriminated against is when an admin tells a member they are denied because of their race even if they don't know the person. For example: Saying "This forum is only for white people of a certain state." That's discriminating. Not denying someone because they are a trouble maker and the person tries use the race card as a means of getting a private memberships forum deleted. This also goes to a public memberships forum.

It's the responsibility of the member to read the rules of the what the forums list and the tos here had stated if they do not agree, the had two weeks to terminate their account. It doesn't matter what race they are, they still have to abide by the laws and rules set forth by each community. And that's what I dislike is someone trying to pull 'the race' card and whine about not being at a forum when it's clear they've caused problems in the past. Now granted if an admin has done what they supposedly done like in rag's case, then he should file a tos report. But each admin has that right to deny a person as they wish. It's very difficult to tell a person's race over the internet. You can't 'see' someone through wires..

And more so if it's clear you are not wanted at a forum, why even go there to begin with? You only set yourself up for hate and being picked on people that obviously don't like you. There are millions of forums hosted here that can be chosen where a person is accepted. no sense in going into the lions den and saying, "Want to be my friend?" And getting mauled to death from lions.

People have a privilege to have their own forums, not a right. That privilege can be taken away. No matter what kind of place it is, it can be taken away.

I was using an example of discrimination, it's not to say that the color of someone's skin is the only type. Personality, color, beliefs, sexual preference, etc. things of that sort. I'm just saying it is wrong for people to do things like that. They too, the staff/people, fall under that privilege card.

If you go to a bar and people pick on you because they don't like you, should you stop going to that bar? No, not one person in this world has a right to force you to leave a place just because they don't like you. Sure, there are many other bars but are they closer to your home or around a place you grew up? Probably not, so why should a few people who bully someone, force that person to not be able to enjoy the freedom of going to that bar? It's not right! If the bar owner, workers do that, they can have their bar taken away from them and lose their jobs.

Of course, you have a right to tell someone to not come into your home. That doesn't fit under this really. Sure, it can seem discriminating but you have a right to tell people to leave your home, by law you do. But by law, you can't refuse service from someone. Now, I understand the private places but if someone who isn't in the "circle" finds out about the secret place, it really wasn't secret in the first place, now was it?

And who said it was okay to pick on someone just because they won't leave a place? They don't have a right to pick on someone just because they are not liked. That sort of stuff violates the TOS. Due to the fact that it's a hate crime. And no, hate crimes are not solely for people that are homosexual or what not. Hate crimes can happen to anyone. But not many people will go to the lengths of being obvious they are acting like a bully/troll. They hide like cowards and make small shots trying to cause more trouble then really, anyone else is. Staff that does this does not deserve to be staff, plain and simple.

This isn't about the fact they can ban you or tell you to leave, sure... they can ban you and make you leave. But if it borderlines hate crime, then that is a different story.

Anyone that condones "Go away or we will bully you, tease you, make fun of you, tear you apart with our snide, childish, borderline trolling comments because we don't like you" disgusts me and that is said with the utmost respect and as nice as I can make it come out to be. That sort of attitude is unjustifiable and anyone that tries to justify it really is trying to make an excuse for their poor attitude so they can feel like they did something right. Which, they did not.

[ragnarok918763]

Is this to say that my opinion was right and the staff on that board are abusing their authority? Or are you trying to get Storm to change her views?

[Candice]

Aug 10, 2010 0:53:45 GMT -8 ragnarok918763 said:

Is this to say that my opinion was right and the staff on that board are abusing their authority? Or are you trying to get Storm to change her views?

Hi,

Welcome to D:YP. Please remember that all posts should be four sentences long at the minimum so as to add to the discussion at hand.

Thank you.

[Venomi]

Ignorance is no excuse. It's like trying to tell a cop that you didn't know that you needed a driver's license to operate a motor vehicle.

actualy thats not exactly true there have been cases where pople have been let of with minor crimes because they were not aware of any laws they were braking and therefore were technically ding nything wrong. "braking the law is only possible if you are aware of what you are doing is wrong" generaly this only applies in the States as the laws can change from state to state but obviously laws like Murder are world wide so doubt you could get away with that.

[ragnarok918763]

Thank you my friend.

To Storm as well, I didn't know the forum didn't like me. At first it seemed all was well until XXX happened. Then they started picking on me.

However, I have since learnt to get past it.

Probably, yeah. Either that or stop caring as much. It's just a website, don't let some posters' comments leak over into your personal thoughts or every day reality.

So some people on the internet don't like you. Big deal.

If you're mature and confident in yourself, it won't really matter whether a random internet forum doesn't like you. They sound like a bunch of kids trying to have a laugh at someone else's expense. No need to one-up them in childishness. Ignore them, leave the board, and they'll forget about you.

Lingering on this will not help anything.

[Owlstar]

I think some staff can get like this, though I'm not entirely sure why. They could have had a bad day and needed someone to take it out on. But I don't think being rude to members on your forum will make your forum successful because the specific member may leave and tell others that you are rude. I think a staff member is abusing their power when they start changing a forum (if it's not their own) without the creator's permission. Or if they start treating members badly with no reason or if the member broke one rule. I don't think a disagreement is a good reason for a warning or a ban. The only way a warning or ban would be acceptable to solve a disagreement is if the regular member starts breaking rules or behaving miserably toward the staff member and causing a disruption. I personally haven't experienced this, and if I have been like this, I certainly hadn't meant to be.

[jaedyn69]

When do you think a staff member has pushed the boundaries of power on a forum?

I am a firm believer in admin/mods leading by example because they are the ones with the power. When they chastise members via pm, delete/edit threads of only a small group of members, go to admin of other sites where a certain user may be a member to "report" on said member and reveal private information/conversation in an effort to discredit said member...these things are unacceptable.

Is a disagreement grounds for a warning or banning?

If disagreements turn in to words of a physical nature like "I'm gonna kick your...." and "someone should run you over...", then I would have to say yes. Because this is the internet there will be plenty of disagreements over nothing and a little positive encouragement and reinforcement by admin should allow these options to be last resorts.

What about idle threats to warn or ban a member in order to forced them into submission with their own beliefs?

I have seen this happen far too often and it continues to this day. Again, admin/mods are to be setting the example not roughing people up with threats, even simple nice sounding ones, by using the "power of adverse action" to make people compliant to their beliefs.

What about deletion of your post and threads because they disagreed with what was posted?

This kind of links with the above...the "use of adverse action". Opinion is everyone's right, including users. I could see if there were way too many curse words and such but a lot of times only one user out of the bunch arguing gets punished. Locking a thread like this would be acceptable but deleting and editing like George Lucas has done to the Original Star Wars Trilogy is arrogant and not an honest way to earn members respect and trust.

Have you had experience with this? Were you ever accused of abusing your powers or a member who was a victim of an abusive staff?

I have had experience with this though I've never been accused of it. I am a current victim of it actually but it would seem that this form of behavior is acceptable & allowed and there is no reasonable way to protect ones self from it.

[jaedyn69]

There should be a report abuse link at the bottom of each forum. It will be addressed from that point on and if the tos dept here finds it necessary, they will take further action.

I am curious. Since Proboards won't interfere with how administrators run their forums how would your suggestion actually affect any change in treatment? The Proboards TOS doesn't really offer any protection to any user of a forum, only it's admin. I am confuzzled now..............LOL.

[draveken]

Now see as a board admin, we set a page immediately stating our rules and what is acceptable and not. Thus kinda avoids those "unwanted situations where you get broadsided and go what the heck was that for" moments. Thus by doing that anything we post on our forum is reviewed not only by the admin staff on our boards but the moderators whom you may or may not know you are actually playing with. Our boards are a roleplaying one but has a free open discussion section that stuff not in character to the roleplaying can be talked about and doesn't interrupt others who are trying to focus on the gaming. This is also a common practice on alot of boards. So if you had a rule page that says no XXX or offensive stuff... you gave proper warning and don't need to warn them or tell them why they were banned... Ours you have to actually read the rules before allowed to post by requests sent to the Admins of our board. It also helps remove the riff-raff and trollers and griefers from causing problems.

[jaedyn69]

Nov 1, 2010 12:14:33 GMT -8 draveken said:

Now see as a board admin, we set a page immediately stating our rules and what is acceptable and not. Thus kinda avoids those "unwanted situations where you get broadsided and go what the heck was that for" moments. Thus by doing that anything we post on our forum is reviewed not only by the admin staff on our boards but the moderators whom you may or may not know you are actually playing with. Our boards are a roleplaying one but has a free open discussion section that stuff not in character to the roleplaying can be talked about and doesn't interrupt others who are trying to focus on the gaming. This is also a common practice on alot of boards. So if you had a rule page that says no XXX or offensive stuff... you gave proper warning and don't need to warn them or tell them why they were banned... Ours you have to actually read the rules before allowed to post by requests sent to the Admins of our board. It also helps remove the riff-raff and trollers and griefers from causing problems.

It's a safety net, I get that, but what you're saying doesn't address the question I posed so much as it parrots the TOS in your own words.

It does, however, reinforce my concern about the somewhat ambiguous nature of the TOS as it relates to regular forum members who are actually having "real" (not made up) issues with admin/moderators like some of the examples already posted.

Since admin/mods are left to their own ways it would suggest, although not printed anywhere in black and white, that they are responsible for protecting their own members since it's their forum...while being allowed to look the other way in the same breath when some members are being abused by admin/mods under the same "suggested but not in black and white terms".

Normal forum users, making mistakes or not, are not offered or allowed the same protection the TOS offers admin/mods are and reporting TOS violations may cut short ones life span on any given forum due to the report alone...and there is nothing a forum user can do, hence, no protection for regular forum users.

So my question is this....for regular forum users having legitimate issues like the ones mentioned in this thread , do they have any real avenues to protect them or is the subject of staff abusing powers just a courtesy term?

I believe this to be a fair inquiry and for the record, I mean you no disrespect, just discussing.

Thanks

[Shentino]

Staff Abusing Powers, This seems to be a huge issue for many members.

There seems to be a continuous struggle regarding what the rights of a member are and the responsibilities of a staff member. When do you think a staff member has pushed the boundaries of power on a forum? Is a disagreement grounds for a warning or banning? What about idle threats to warn or ban a member in order to forced them into submission with their own beliefs? What about deletion of your post and threads because they disagreed with what was posted?

Have you had experience with this? Were you ever accused of abusing your powers or a member who was a victim of an abusive staff. Please keep in mind, that this isn't cyber bullying I am talking about, that is a whole different issue. This is about staff stepping over the line.

I think that as long as staff follow the same rules that they are supposed to be enforcing, trouble will be avoided.

If it's against the rules for members to be jerks, it should also be against the same rules for staff members to be jerks by abusing their power.

---

Personally, I have been the victim of an outright scandal. One time I was banned for using multiple accounts.

Scandalicious bits:

* For starters, the rule prohibiting multiple accounts wasn't even listed in the rules until *after* I was already banned. It was added shortly afterwards, untidily tacked onto the bottom, as a blatant butt covering move by the administrator.

* An attempt by me to recover account information for the first account was blocked by a silent ban that I was not aware of, potentially a setup to entrap me into committing ban evasion, the ultimate offense.

* Secondly, another staff member was simultaneously permitted, with *full cooperation* from the others, to violate the exact same rule, and abusively no less, by using his doppelganger account to troll tri-annually, and magically NOT get punished for it. An offense that, if properly sanctioned, would have resulted in a permaban long before I was even a member of the forum.

Shortly after I was banned, the site admin that owned the domain the board was subordinate to FIRED the board admin, and the new admin that took over busted him down to mortality. I had the supreme pleasure of bracketing in a 2 second window the two page refreshes that showed the difference in his position, one second he was staff, and two seconds later he was not.

5 years after being banned, I was let back in by the new admin, after exposing a security flaw that would have allowed me and anyone else who had been banned to evade with nothing but staff memory to catch them. It was one of many flaws in the forum software that eventually led them to migrate to another system.

Later on I was even considered for hiring as a forum moderator. I was turned down due to lack of competence in the subject area of the forum in question. Still, though, having a ban on my record and still being even considered for staff position, wow.

Also, I was pleased that corruption seemed to have been cleaned up. After a dispute with a GM, who also happened to be an ex staff member (retired), I sent him an apology. My apology was promptly reported as an abusive PM.

The administrator, upon getting the PM report, was furious at the ex staffer, and didn't find anything wrong with what I had done. The staffer in question was given a serious butt chewing for abusing the PM report function.

A new administrator, who was in the process of taking over at the time, also considered the false complaint as grounds for permanently disqualifying the ex staffer from consideration to return to the role of moderating the forum that I myself had been considered for. To be blunt, nobody with an axe to grind should be in possession of forum firepower.

So I guess karma works.

[robbie]

I ran into a problem like this once on a message board that wasn't even a proboard,but still was a big problem like what is debated here. A certain moderator on this forum was nothing but rude. If you even so much disagreed with him he would not allow you to post simply by deleting your posts every time you tried to post. Also they would have the rule that "members are to treat others with respect" which means no flaming or rude comments,but this moderator,if he saw someone post something he thought was dumb,he would actually start flaming the member for it and make rude comments toward them. So it was like the rules only existed for the members and did not apply to him.

So that's where I think the line gets drawn is when you,as a staff member or admin start abusing your powers. Is when you are rude to your members,do not allow your members to disagree with you,or when you think that the rules you are supposed to be enforcing do not apply to you the same as they do to everyone else.